saw this screenshot from twitter on tumblr earlier this morning. this is a terrifying mentality. this kind of thinking can't be as prevalent as the echo chambers makes them seem, right?
(Or maybe they're a Mormon and drinking a glass of wine is as out there to them as going on a six day blinder and waking up in a bathtub full of ice cubes with no memories, no left kidney, and BITE ME tattooed on your forehead.)
@cstross I think at least part of the issue is a US thing - they are culturally *weird* about drinking, even the ones who aren't otherwise especially puritan.
I remember fan discourse years ago about how Gillian Anderson's character in The Fall must be an alcoholic because she drank *two* glasses of wine
@cstross oh hard same, I don't think they realise just how weird it is to the rest of the world that they culturally only do "drink to get real fucked up" or not at all.
@stavvers I think Americans are weird about Alcohol the way Brits are weird about gun ownership. (Although there's a much stronger case to ban guns than booze.)
@stavvers It's also really weird how American bars always have giant-ass TV screens showing sports (with the volume turned up, but different channels on each) OR dance-floor levels of loud music, or sometimes both. There's no concept of quiet social drinking, apart from that one weird Trappist monk themed bar on Manhattan.
@cstross In NYC, me and my gf stopped for one (1) beer, sitting on a table outside and the servers looked at us like we'd grown extra limbs for not wanting to sit at the noisy bar and only drinking one beer before going off to enjoy our day.
@cstross @stavvers I think there's a very strong cultural conditioning, explicitly for men but it extends somewhat to women, that prevents non-idle conversation, or companionable silence, and both of these things feed into it.
If you're drunk, you can be emotional- show feelings, possibly step outside of standard 'bounds'. If you have TVs showing sports, you can deflect actual emotions onto emotional engagement via proxy.
@cstross @stavvers In Texas, we have a category of bar called an “icehouse”. It’s basically a giant mixed dirt/lawn/patio area covered in picnic tables, varied seating, trees, maybe horeshoes, a fire pit, or a food truck. You go to a central open-sided bar building to replenish. There will be reasonable (not super loud) music and often some tvs, but they’re both local within the bigger area. Mostly it’s friend groups milling around being social.
@cstross Back when @dnapizza was open for lunch, I witnessed two guys come in, sit at the bar, look up at the screen playing music videos, and ask the server, "Hey, can you put The Game on?" When they said "I literally cannot" the guys got up and left. I considered that a victory, only mildly pyrrhic.
@cstross @stavvers as someone who would rather nurse a good single malt and talk for hours instead of slamming one down with the boys, finding a quiet bar/pub in the states is a rare blessing.
@cstross @stavvers as an American who hates loud bars and and bars with TV screens… thankfully it is possible to find places that are neither. But it is surprisingly challenging, especially outside the big cities
@stavvers @cstross I thought "drink to get real fucked up or not at all" was a (northern) scandi thing...? (the Danes are thought to be more civilized around alcohol than the rest of us... that's why "northern")
(and Norway copied the US's prohibition. Didn't work out real well here either)
@stavvers @cstross It does seem, to a person with limited experience, to be either frat-style alcohol-oblivion or no alcohol in the US. Going for a pint seemed really surprising to people when I was there.
@cstross I think there's something generational going on there too. Being a non drinking young person is much more common now - 26% (source - theguardian.com/society/2022/j…)
So maybe the reluctance to make that a defining character trait is to make the characters relatable to the maximum number of readers.
I do not understand why this person thinks characters in a novel "should" do anything, beyond behaving like credible people. The idea there's a moral value to writing characters having a drink vs. not having a drink is *weird*.
@Tanngrisnir the "should" discourse is very confusing to me. i wasn't aware we were supposed to be treating all fiction like morality plays or instruction manuals for living 🤨
Charlie Stross
in reply to paris • • •Aaah, the neopuritans strike again!
(Or maybe they're a Mormon and drinking a glass of wine is as out there to them as going on a six day blinder and waking up in a bathtub full of ice cubes with no memories, no left kidney, and BITE ME tattooed on your forehead.)
Another Angry Woman
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross I think at least part of the issue is a US thing - they are culturally *weird* about drinking, even the ones who aren't otherwise especially puritan.
I remember fan discourse years ago about how Gillian Anderson's character in The Fall must be an alcoholic because she drank *two* glasses of wine
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Oggie
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross @stavvers
I think there's a very strong cultural conditioning, explicitly for men but it extends somewhat to women, that prevents non-idle conversation, or companionable silence, and both of these things feed into it.
If you're drunk, you can be emotional- show feelings, possibly step outside of standard 'bounds'. If you have TVs showing sports, you can deflect actual emotions onto emotional engagement via proxy.
So providing booze and displaced emotions...welp.
sidb
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in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross @stavvers
I am a simple man. I like my bars dark, with the quiet susurration of people who are alone together.
…basically I like my bars to be libraries with booze.
Jonathan Hendry
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •My ideal is more of a non-chain coffee shop / cafe that also serves beer.
Kent Borg
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Steinar Bang
in reply to Another Angry Woman • • •@stavvers @cstross I thought "drink to get real fucked up or not at all" was a (northern) scandi thing...? (the Danes are thought to be more civilized around alcohol than the rest of us... that's why "northern")
(and Norway copied the US's prohibition. Didn't work out real well here either)
random thoughts
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in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross
I think there's something generational going on there too. Being a non drinking young person is much more common now - 26% (source - theguardian.com/society/2022/j…)
So maybe the reluctance to make that a defining character trait is to make the characters relatable to the maximum number of readers.
Gen Z for zero tolerance: why British youth are turning off booze
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DC
in reply to paris • • •paris
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Unknown parent • • •@panoptikontraband I was gonna say, that's not Americans, that's Vodka Belt people (Sweden, Finland, Russia, nearby places).
I see a lot of people in American media having one (1) whiskey.
@Charlie Stross @Another Angry Woman @rê
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