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Once again, seeing the whole, "Fediverse is full of Europeans who keep refusing to frame social justice issues strictly from the point of view of USians and this is definitely very problematic everyone!" thing.

And I can't help thinking, "Have you tried taking your cultural imperialism and shoving it up your arse? Maybe that will help?"

in reply to Sarah Brown

"But why can't you see racial issues through the precise lens of the US civil war and its aftermath and the North American social justice struggles of the 20th century while completely ignoring the impact of your own countries' 19th and 20th century colonial legacies, the status of European ethnic minorities, and the effects of reintegration after the Cold War? The fact that you have your own issues and perspectives is VERY PROBLEMATIC FOR ME, and I DO NOT LIKE IT!"

Diddums?

in reply to Sarah Brown

on the one hand, I agree, and on the other, there's always something funny when Brits complain about American cultural imperialism. Like a more harmless version of Irish people complaining about migration.
in reply to Sarah Brown

I have learned not to answer you publicly, way too many people are finding me. It was a throwaway remark between friends! I didn't think anyone would notice!
in reply to Ailbhe

@ailbhe do you mean actual Irish people, or Irish Americans? Because given the issues caused by the last group of people who imergrated to Ireland in large numbers, I think they can be forgiven if they're a bit salty about it...
in reply to Ailbhe

@ailbhe @duckwhistle Bloody hell, you’re right. I never noticed that on my very shiny new passport.

The 27th amendment really is a shocking stain on modern Ireland.

in reply to Ailbhe

@ailbhe yeah seeing this post from a British person just makes it really funny
in reply to Ausir

@ausir @ailbhe yeah like obviously americans are provincial I just don't think british people are any less provincial
in reply to Masonic Cowgirl

@julieofthespirits @ausir @ailbhe we all are, just the province name changes. and it's not bad! just that we all have something to learn, and means to do it on our own.

(and! the people from europe denying existence of racism in europe or demanding a full explanation of american history every single time there's a conversation going between americans are fucking annoying.)

in reply to Sarah Brown

Exactly this. I remember when iTunes would automatically name your albums when you ripped them all those years ago. I had an album by Talking Heads that was called [IMPORT], which illustrated perfectly how the United States is just the whole world to some people. The second example that sticks with me is seeing Brianna Ghey accused of white privilege in 2023. I love the US but some need to take a step back sometimes.
in reply to Sarah Brown

What in particular are you upset about, because I can't tell what kinds of behaviors you wish to cease.
in reply to Mz. April Daniels

@Mz. April Daniels I would say more exasperated than upset.

After all, this is pretty much the one form of social networking where, if someone desperately needs to fuck the fuck off, you’re not necessarily risking a ban for saying so.

in reply to Sarah Brown

But what exactly is it that exasperates you? Because you haven't been specific--I can't tell what you're talking about.
in reply to Sarah Brown

I don't know why you're being so rude to me. I'm trying to understand the root of your complaint so I can be a better neighbor, and now you're being petty and snide. Did your mother not love you or something?
in reply to Mz. April Daniels

@MzAprilDaniels Maybe is a perspective problem, but Americans tend to take their problem, magnifying it x100 then project it on the rest of the world. When the world doesn't respond in kind (like when America exports democracy and UAVs) people tend to get upset.

This is not a particular issue, but a vast wide range.

in reply to Mz. April Daniels

@MzAprilDaniels Oui, il y a ça aussi. Le refus obtus des dominants de comprendre un langage simple, clair et structuré. @goatsarah
in reply to Sarah Brown

This is a subtoot about Kissane's subtoot about a white guy mansplaining racism to a Black woman pointing out (correctly) how white and off putting the Fediverse currently is?

The criticism about my country's cultural hegemony is valid. But it feels like you're saying the EU's hands are clean on the racism and white supremacy front, which I'm sure isn't what you mean.

EDIT: fix typo

This entry was edited (9 months ago)
in reply to Sarah Brown

Because I wrote "But ____" when I usually try to avoid that because of how it can negate the prior statement…

Re-emphasizing that "fediverse feels homogenously white" and "USA cultural imperialism go fuck yourself" are both valid.

I said my thing. I'll move along.

in reply to Tim @toolbear#🪧@ Taylor

@Tim @toolbear@ Taylor See, that’s an example right there, “homogeneously white”, where the word “white” means a very specific thing to Americans in this context which you just go and assume has to have exactly the same cultural connotations to the rest of the world.

And then start using that assumption, or even assertion, to eg tell Roma people that they can’t possibly be victims of racism (and they very much are) because the experience of people ten thousand kilometres away is somehow more pertinent to their situation than their own.

It’s kinda like going to another country and remarking that it’s full of foreigners.

reshared this

in reply to Sarah Brown

Hard disagree. White supremacy isn't an exclusive export from my country.

You keep decentering a complaint from a Black woman. That's what I most disliked and why I spoke up originally.

in reply to Tim @toolbear#🪧@ Taylor

@Tim @toolbear@ Taylor I mean, that was your assumption. I’m complaining about a generalised phenomenon however; specifically, how on earth does someone come onto a forum, note very publicly that it’s predominantly populated by non Americans, and in the same breath decide that the best way to navigate this specific dynamic is through the precise prism of USA race relations?

You’re literally doing it now, and it’s apparently so ingrained that you aren’t even aware that you’re doing it now. You’re seeing a room full of mostly Europeans talking to other Europeans and deciding that the most important thing we need to bear in mind is your specific cultural sensitivities.

You don’t appear to give a shit about ours though.

in reply to Sarah Brown

A typical comment I often run into on reddit is "it is an american website so we assume almost everyone is american" along with "the internet was made in america" and "50% of the traffic is american why would I think someone speaking english is not american".
There's even a sub for this phenomenon called /r/usdefaultism
in reply to Sarah Brown

To borrow a term and analogy from agriculture, we are being subjected to monoculture media practices. And on the same way MA has resulted from from lack of seed varieties media suffers from lack of variation in publishers.
in reply to Sarah Brown

Do you think there's some way we can get the gringos to move over to Blsky or something? They'd be so much happier there. A proper, USian company. No Europeans. No weird memes. No other languages. Nobody talking about places in the world you've never heard about. It would be perfect.
in reply to Sarah Brown

Try to stay focus on toots in French. It's the best way to avoid US-way-of-life :troll:
in reply to dada

@dada Honestly, got enough on my plate trying to learn Portuguese!
@dada
in reply to Sarah Brown

Portugal 😍

Same here trying to learn the Perfidious Albion english than US english. It's a mess! 😝

in reply to Sarah Brown

it's also "how dare you use software / Network that was not invented by us (i.e. in the silicon valley)?"
This entry was edited (9 months ago)
in reply to Sarah Brown

it's even worse when they talk about "The global south" or third world countries...
They like to talk about cultures and respecting differences but they will then translate 1-1 United States based societal expectations of how things should work!!
in reply to Sarah Brown

"Aber warum können Sie Rassenfragen nicht durch die präzise Linse des US-Bürgerkriegs und seiner Folgen und der nordamerikanischen Kämpfe um soziale Gerechtigkeit im 20. Jahrhundert sehen, während Sie die Auswirkungen des kolonialen Erbes Ihrer eigenen Länder im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert, den Status der europäischen ethnischen Minderheiten und die Auswirkungen der Wiedereingliederung nach dem Kalten Krieg völlig ignorieren?
in reply to Sapere Aude

Die Tatsache, dass Sie Ihre eigenen Probleme und Perspektiven haben, ist für mich SEHR PROBLEMATISCH, und das gefällt mir nicht!"

Diddums?

in reply to Sarah Brown

One of the things I really enjoyed about it the first few months* was how many Europeans there were. I learned a lot just from having to adjust my frame to understand y'all's references.
_
*I limit it like that because I think there are just a lot more North Americans on here now.
in reply to FeralRobots

@FeralRobots To me, this still all feels refreshingly different to the self censorship we have to engage in on other sites to avoid falling foul of very narrowly focused moderation practices, but there are those who are essentially saying, "The culture of this place needs to change because I refuse to consider the cultural sensibilities of other places might result in things being seen though a different lens", and to me, that displays an utter lack of awareness of the way the rest of us have to act pretty much everywhere else.
in reply to Sarah Brown

@FeralRobots Because of the American education system and Mass Media Industry, the majority of Americans live in a remarkable cultural bubble. The can not even get Canada right, and we are part of North America. 😂

You speak English, but wrong.

How many hours does it take to drive from Toronto to Vancouver?

Canadian Thanksgiving is in October. Is that the metric system?

in reply to Sarah Brown

I keep "fuck off back to idaho" on my clipboard. I don't even know what it means but it annoys them a lot so it must be doing some good
in reply to Sarah Brown

I guess the funniest thing is when mericans first experienced another country applying their law to them with the GDPR… hey, you've been doing that for 80 years, let us have a try!
in reply to mmu_man

@mmu_man I await Musk’s encounter with the “and find out” stage.
in reply to Sarah Brown

omfg this! I swear some American's problem with Mastodon is that it's not an American app and that scares them like the Metric System does.
That whole "if we didn't invent it, it must be sus" thing.
in reply to Sarah Brown

It’s also interesting observing this from a former British colony where many social justice issues are largely the consequences of historical (and ongoing) conflict between European settlers and indigenous people. A very different lense. US cultural hegemony is very strong but it regularly clashes with the way we see the world.
in reply to Iain MacLean

@Iain MacLean I mean, the whole thing about race is that it’s a social construct and the boundaries of what constitutes it are set according to the underlying social structure of each society.

But Americans literally can’t comprehend, despite their last 150 years of history shaping it utterly profoundly, that other places draw lines in different places.

As far as they seem to be concerned, there are “white people” and “PoC”, and that’s it.

The mental gymnastics they then perform to contextualise things like the Northern Ireland situation, racial discrimination against travellers and Roma, the literal Holocaust, and shoehorn them into their specific narrative are something to behold.

in reply to Sarah Brown

@pkboi This is the same for USian native/tribal issues, Hispanic issues too. Eg, the 1619 Project minimizes much older systemic racism that still affects tribal treaties. We ignore the significant differences between Cubans, Mexicans, Guatemalans.
I’m pretty sure most folks here still think Sunni-Shia violence is just because middle easterners Hate Freedom, ignoring centuries of history, Iranian and Pakistan funded militant groups.
in reply to Sarah Brown

I struggled to understand what you meant by all this. And then I read your further replies on your site where you bring up Roma, and I have this to say.

Please do not use Roma as a way to say "White people suffer racism too!"

Traditionally, Roma were not treated or classified as White People. Some of us can pass as 'White', and many had to in order to flee Fascism. But Roma as a people were not considered 'White People'. See for example how Australia treated Roma immigrants.

in reply to Jay Blanc

Not to distract from "'Black Lives Matter' focus is American Imperialism being imposed on Europeans" is a nuclear bad take. You might, for instance, remember that we have just as many Problematic Statues, because the slave trade and the systemic generational racism it created did not start and end in the Southern United States.
in reply to Jay Blanc

in reply to LN :anarchoheart3:

@LN :anarchoheart3: @Jay Blanc Ah, but if you don’t export it 1:1 then you’re just saying “you can be racist against white people too”, apparently, because nuance is the enemy when someone has a nice simple binary categorisation system.

Like, growing up a lot of my extended family members were racist as fuck. A lot of it absolutely was about skin colour, but an awful lot wasn’t too, and when someone is desperate to tell you that, “no, your experiences were wrong, because that doesn’t fit how I see the world”, then they can just go away.

in reply to Jay Blanc

@Jay Blanc You’re very good at reading what you want and ignoring the rest to in order to be another tedious wanker half way round the world telling us that we don’t understand our own social dynamics and modern history, aren’t you?

*plonk* for you. Toodles.

in reply to Sarah Brown

I'm Irish and Roma and live in England. You are an idiot.
in reply to Sarah Brown

https://mastodon.nz/@goatsarah@thegoatery.dyndns.org/110498662864819628 US cultural blindness is something else again. My family immigrated there, I grew up bilingual, and I've lived in many different countries. The US is the only one I've come across where so many people can't conceive of other ways of thinking about experiences. Literally can't see it at all. Like pointing out something visible in UV and to them it's not there. Nor can they imagine you don't mean this other thing which they do see in shades of green.


Once again, seeing the whole, "Fediverse is full of Europeans who keep refusing to frame social justice issues strictly from the point of view of USians and this is definitely very problematic everyone!" thing.

And I can't help thinking, "Have you tried taking your cultural imperialism and shoving it up your arse? Maybe that will help?"


in reply to Sarah Brown

Reminds me of this person I knew who claimed Switzerland was racist (it is) because it doesn't account for the legacy of enslaved Blacks.

(dafuk? Yes there were complex slavery links, but it's *nothing* like Southern US! Also, it's got specific idiosyncrasies linked to recent and older migration waves, but that's not really racism and they're the anti-racist because they're saving the right words...)

in reply to Sarah Brown

this is exactly the issue I've had for a long time. The arguments for changing how Mastodon works, how it is moderated, etc, are seemingly mostly from Americans that are trying to frame everything from a US perspective. It's infuriating.

There's more Europeans than Americans, surely we can have one place which suits us more than them?

Unknown parent

@NV Ozmus @Mz. April Daniels It’s an interesting take, John, but let’s check the ratios.

Yeah, I think plenty of people seem to empathise with this, actually. Maybe you’re just a fish not noticing they you’re wet?

in reply to Sarah Brown

It’s the colonial mindset. I truly believe it is almost impossible for an American to conceive of the world as separate from America. There’s America, there are the friendly Disneyland states you visit to be entertained by the curious displays of the Almost-Americans, and then there are the Brown people ghettos you bomb (with a suitably diverse military, of course)…

As I watched an American tell a Brit once: “Accent? I don’t have an accent… you have an accent!”

in reply to Aral Balkan

@aral

From Snatch; "You people spawned this language. How come none of you can speak it?" (from memory, so could be off a bit)

@goatsarah

in reply to Aral Balkan

@Aral Balkan @Sarah Brown Technically, they probably both hadn't any accent, but different dialects.
in reply to Sarah Brown

I lived over 3 decades in the US. Racial dynamics, relations and history are very different in the US and Europe, even terminology differs considerably. It's very hard for most US and European folks to understand each other on most social (not just racial) issues.
in reply to pmroman 🇪🇺

@pmroman The first time I went to the US, I experienced massive culture shock. Sharing a language, I expected far more cultural compatibility but what I found just felt so very foreign, far more so than any European country I’ve visited even when I don’t speak a word of the local language.

It was quite the wake-up call.

in reply to Sarah Brown

Yes, it is far more different than first impressions could indicate, and surely it isn't like in the movies 😀
in reply to Sarah Brown

This is so on point. Another hilarious online thing is americans guarding other cultures from cultural appropriation.
in reply to Sarah Brown

To some extent I have the same issue with Brits who have never seen other cultures except as holiday destinations!

I have lived and worked in France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg and also spent 3 years living in Thailand.

In each of those countries I have learnt of the massive cultural differences that divide us one from another. Some are highly amusing, others deadly serious.

Some of my more narrow minded "stay at home" British friends accuse me of being a turncoat; of abandoning my 'Britishness' for 'Europeanism' and I guess that is true.

However, I am reminded of a friend of mine who is of Vietnamese origin and who was raised in Vietnam; only leaving to move to western Europe when she was about 20. Talking about the end of the Vietnam war, she referred to the defeat of the USA in Vietnam at the hands of the North Vietnamese Army, as "the liberation". I don't think too many Americans would see it that way. What you perceive depends on the point of view from which you perceive it!

in reply to Sarah Brown

Wieder einmal sehe ich die ganze "Fediverse ist voll von Europäern, die sich weigern, Fragen der sozialen Gerechtigkeit strikt aus der Sicht der US-Amerikaner zu betrachten, und das ist definitiv sehr problematisch für alle!" Sache.

Und ich kann nicht anders, als zu denken: "Habt ihr versucht, euch euren Kulturimperialismus in den Arsch zu schieben? Vielleicht hilft das ja?"