A thing I have noticed. 2 decades ago, there was decent pharmaceutical knowledge in the trans community. We knew what GnRH agonists were and how they work. We knew that for trans girls, if you couldn’t get them, then a cocktail of spironolactone and finasteride would do a pretty good job as a replacement. We knew that cyproterone acetate worked even better than spiro, but was hepatotoxic, so be careful.
I feel like that’s all been … lost?
I suspect that until this sentence, most currently transitioning people won’t even know that GnRH agonist is the proper term for what is frequently and misleadingly called a “puberty blocker”.
How did we let all this knowledge get lost? We, as a community, used to know how to outflank attempts to stop us accessing medication.
Now the British government just go, “we’re banning prescription of puberty blockers” and everyone throws their hands up and goes, “oh well, no alternative but unopposed testosterone I guess”.
We were better than this. Why did that go away?
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Sarah Brown
in reply to Sarah Brown • •THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO GET ROUND GOVERNMENTS TRYING TO KEEP TRANSITION MEDS AWAY FROM YOU.
WE USED TO DO IT ALL THE TIME.
TALK TO TRANS ELDERS. WE KNOW THIS STUFF.
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Llwynog
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Sarah Brown
in reply to Llwynog • •like this
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legumancer Davy
in reply to Llwynog • • •Kevin Karhan :verified:
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Katie Fenn
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •My feeling is that the Cass report has given politicians in the “centre ground”, the ones that we knew we couldn’t trust, a cover story to move away from supporting trans people on this. The Wes Streetings who were phoning in their allyship all along.
I’d be happy to be corrected, but nobody who seriously campaigns for better trans healthcare is happy about the proposed ban, it’s the chancers who don’t stand for anything that have abandoned us.
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Katie Fenn
in reply to Katie Fenn • • •That said, I do agree that DIYing has been somewhat pushed underground. Having made the decision to switch to the NHS in the mid-2000s (I was transitioning at university and broke), I’ve always got my prescriptions from an NHS GP.
I wouldn’t even know where to start with DIY, which is playing on my mind, I admit.
Katie Fenn
in reply to Katie Fenn • • •Oh, and also, with more and more trans people coming out when young, and with full support of their parents, the demographic has somewhat changed.
There’s a new cohort of people who were hoping to have the support of the state, who have been completely abandoned. I know the community has always had my back on this, but I can’t help but feel for those people who are now feeling absolutely lost.
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Sarah Brown
in reply to Katie Fenn • •@Katie Fenn anyone wanting to know this stuff should find a trans woman who transitioned in the 2000s or 1990s and ask. We will at the very least provide signposting.
Meanwhile I’ve got a lifetime ban from r/transgenderUK for simply stating that self medication happened. Wasn’t even advocating it. Just speaking about it existing is sufficient for other trans people to want to shut me up.
Our social media used to have entire communities dedicated to it.
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Cyberspice
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Katie Fenn
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Natomic
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •trans reddit is a shithole it's really sad
in my generation at least DIY is kinda underground but we still have knowledgeable people you just have to find them scattered across discord servers and DMs
geekylou :transgender_flag:
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Sarah Brown
in reply to geekylou :transgender_flag: • •like this
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Astryr the Seiber-Swynwraig
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Sarah Brown likes this.
Sarah Brown
in reply to Astryr the Seiber-Swynwraig • •Joy Aliza Denebeim
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •@alexandria I started diy because I had no interest in socially transitioning and that wasn't an option.
Anyway when I did go to my gp she said "I assume you won't quit if I tell you to" yup. Here's a prescription, being monitored by a Dr is way more healthy than doing it yourself. I'll read up on the subject, come see me in 3 months
Sarah Brown
Unknown parent • •@Ghost of Hope We’ve been through “asking your cis friends for birth control” before.
Of course, this time they’re going after birth control as well.
Charlotte
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •If it helps, I went from zero to knowing about these things in the last 18 months or so (🐣). The knowledge is extremely accessible today, but perhaps because various things have got a lot easier many people are less inclined to initially go "well I better learn what a 5-alpha reductase is then" as they have not had any learning forced upon them. Given how things are going though I suspect/hope that situation will correct itself very quickly.
obligatory: Also fuck the tories.
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Sarah Brown
in reply to Charlotte • •@Charlotte There’s a lot that can be done with relatively few resources and effort even.
Googling, “how to boost aromatase levels” for example. It’s not much, but it’s something.
Jade Angrboða likes this.
blan©k.
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Jade Angrboða likes this.
Sarah Brown
in reply to blan©k. • •like this
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blan©k.
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •for the record, we don't think it's been lost, but it's definitely not talked about as much
the thing to keep in mind is this is ORAL HISTORY. getting lost is the default thing that happens to oral history. the way to preserve things is to write them down!
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Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •easrng likes this.
Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •levampyre
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to levampyre • • •so like personally we're checks calendar 43
there are very few living queer people older than us, because of the AIDS pandemic. growing up, there was nobody we could learn from.
Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •levampyre
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •@goatsarah
Irenes (many)
in reply to levampyre • • •Alexandra Magin 🏳️🌈
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Sarah Brown likes this.
Irenes (many)
in reply to Alexandra Magin 🏳️🌈 • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •every topic becomes spread out across thousands of small interactions across a period of months
mind, we do stay aware of this and use it consciously (good damn luck to anyone assigned to keep track of what we say for hostile purposes), but it's still a tragic loss
Sarah Brown
in reply to Alexandra Magin 🏳️🌈 • •like this
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Irenes (many)
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •there's also a medium-is-the-message problem with social media
things said there tend to be very bound to a specific moment in time, not just in the sense of how they're navigated, but in that they rely on context from whenever they were said, which can be challenging to reconstruct
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Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •so the core "message" of social media is - live in the moment, don't look back, don't build larger stories out of your experiences
like yes that's an overly grandiose way to put it, and there are plenty of exceptions
R
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •@ireneista our own experience has been basically... entirely contrary to everything described here?
we first discovered that transition was possible at all by meeting some people (most of whom were physical-body-age younger than us) in "the European hacker scene" who firstly gave us the concept of bodily autonomy (as something we could name) but secondly knew about... every HRT detail mentioned in OP, and also much more
R
in reply to R • • •when we finally did (DIY) HRT ourselves, we mostly had to do our own research anyways because the body we wanted (at the time) was contrary to what most other people seemed to want, and we did most of this by just... reading through mechanisms of action on Wikipedia while also referencing published care guidelines. sure, the community has been doing a lot of work editing the relevant wiki articles, but that's not so much "oral history"?
R
in reply to R • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to R • • •R
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •R
in reply to R • • •but now that we've powered through the bulk of "actual mechanics of transitioning", we seem to be coming back to needing(?) social connections? however, we seem to be rather isolated as a result of our allegedly "extremely ND" approach to transitioning, so we don't really have a "positive" view of the idea of compiling oral history
Irenes (many)
in reply to R • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •easrng likes this.
Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •they certainly have come together now, in this century, as like 90% of our mutuals could attest
and there were important threads earlier (Alan Turing! online dating when being gay was more illegal! all that stuff)
but also until the 80s computers were a strictly white-collar thing
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Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •easrng likes this.
Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •like this
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💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •⚡️because in the past a lot of people transitioning right now would not have transitioned at all because this knowledge would have been inaccessible to them.
It’s not that we were better in the past, it’s that in the past only the people able to access this kind of information were *able* to transition. I started hrt in 2011 abd I had to get lucky and encounter a few other, older trans people to even know hrt was a thing I could do successfully. I spent months scouring obscure websites and forums educating myself about it, how it worked, what was involved, what the consequences were, how to handle it legally, how to deal with medical gatekeepers. And I still didn’t know half of what I needed to.
Not to mention how many people ended up homeless or destitute or murdered or suicided who tried it and then lost all their social support.
It’s survivorship bias.
💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸
in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸 • • •like… bottom surgery used to only be done by maybe a dozen doctors worldwide and you had to pay for it entirely out of pocket. The idea of insurance covering it at all was a foreign concept. A lot of people basically just looked at the $20-30k price tag of bottom surgery and said “whelp, guess it will never happen” and gave up
We just don’t hear their stories because they weren’t the people privileged or hyper-capable enough to navigate the Byzantine and extremely expensive process of transition. When I did it, if you weren’t an extremely tech-literate person who understood how to use the internet to find that kind of information and weren’t already active in the queer community, you probably didn’t even know you were trans, let alone the name of even a single anti-androgen. I knew about 3 because there was a shitty website that showed up on Google that explained the whole process
I mean heck, most *doctors* didn’t even know! I had to educate them!
... show morelike… bottom surgery used to only be done by maybe a dozen doctors worldwide and you had to pay for it entirely out of pocket. The idea of insurance covering it at all was a foreign concept. A lot of people basically just looked at the $20-30k price tag of bottom surgery and said “whelp, guess it will never happen” and gave up
We just don’t hear their stories because they weren’t the people privileged or hyper-capable enough to navigate the Byzantine and extremely expensive process of transition. When I did it, if you weren’t an extremely tech-literate person who understood how to use the internet to find that kind of information and weren’t already active in the queer community, you probably didn’t even know you were trans, let alone the name of even a single anti-androgen. I knew about 3 because there was a shitty website that showed up on Google that explained the whole process
I mean heck, most *doctors* didn’t even know! I had to educate them!
💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸
in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸 • • •like, the kind of person who is smart or savy enough to out doctor trained medical professionals, wealthy enough to afford the dozens of medical appointments it took to find one who’d stick their neck out, psychologically resilient enough to keep doing this very hard thing while their entire life fell apart around them, and bold or secure enough to talk about it openly so we actually know what they knew, is a vanishingly small subset of trans people.
That’s why the % of people who transition jumped a full order of magnitude the moment this process became standardized and legit. Only 1 out of 10 trans people were able to make it that far.
Sarah Brown
in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸 • •💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify: • • •easrng likes this.
Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •easrng likes this.
Hrefna (DHC)
Unknown parent • • •@puppygirlhornypost
I was just doing research on a particular poem and in one of the scant sources we have for it the author didn't write down anything about it because "everyone knows that one."
@ireneista @goatsarah
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Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Hrefna (DHC)
Unknown parent • • •@puppygirlhornypost
I think it is worth underscoring here the difference in age groups and access levels we're talking about as well
When I first looked into these questions in the US I was in my _twenties_ and to get spiro + fin required a song and a dance through multiple providers and generally a RLE test.
What's happening now is targeting a much younger population that is more aware, working in a more directly hostile environment, with much more limited resources.
@ireneista @goatsarah
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Irenes (many)
in reply to Hrefna (DHC) • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •yeah absolutely
sigh... the library people are pretty good about understanding the needs in our experience, it's the anarcho-capitalists who are a problem. or at least it feels that way to us personally, from what we've seen
Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Hrefna (DHC) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •easrng
Unknown parent • • •Seirdy likes this.
Hrefna (DHC)
in reply to Hrefna (DHC) • • •@puppygirlhornypost
It's probably also worth noting that dutasteride and finasteride have the same challenge as a lot of other drugs in this space: not readily prescribed to people under the age of 18 due to "lack of testing" in the young age group.
Meaning you need a source for it that is willing to take significant chances for you if you are under 18, in a way that can easily be caught by a government probe.
So the knowledge is helpful, but the doors keep closing
@ireneista @goatsarah
dibi58
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
Unknown parent • • •Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:
Unknown parent • • •@ireneista@adhd.irenes.space my endo prescribes cypro as antiandrogen (at a safe level but as far as i know it's still bleh long term) and refused to prescribe my friend bicalutamide instead even though she's been getting depression symptoms as a side effect from cypro, refusing to acknowledge that that's indeed a known side effect.
he's widely recommended here in my local community but even he doesn't really know much about what he's doing. he also wouldn't give me progesterone until just about a month ago because "my levels aren't low enough" (it's been on a steady downward trend already but that shouldn't even be relevant either way)
i also didnt get a response when i asked him if its a bad thing that my prolactin is way above the recommended range shown on my blood test results, and im not gonna wait another 6 weeks for an appointment to ask in person
with some things i just trust myself more than medical professionals, but DIY is miles more inconvenient and expensive than getting it prescribed and almost fully covered by health insurance
Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face: • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Hrefna (DHC) • • •Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face: • • •@ireneista@adhd.irenes.space oh yeah about the prolactin thing, in case anyone here can tell me whether this is fine or not i'd welcome some help :3
i believe i once heard someone say that anything above ~30 is bad but i wanna get a second opinion on that
dr2chase
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to dr2chase • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face: • • •Seirdy
Unknown parent • • •@puppygirlhornypost @ireneista @awedp This is part of why I like the Common Crawl. It massively reduces the amount of compute/energy/time wasted to index the Web. It’s not just used for LLMs.
The LLM problem is better addressed by something like the W3C’s work-in-progress TDM Reservation Protocol, which is a sort of evolution of robots meta-tags and doesn’t hijack robots.txt (which is ideal for managing robot traffic load).
Li ~ Crystal System
Unknown parent • • •Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Sensitive content
It is because legislators view being trans as a secondary effect. A problematic symptom brought on by other factors.
Quote from the cass report:
This paragraph (from my reading) is a good summary of current dogwhistles used by the tories to deny us. some/most of the factors do have an effect on identity (e.g. social influence), but the implication made by the authors is that they are causing "otherwise cis" people to identify as trans.
These factors are repeated throughout the report, recommending that cautious consideration be taken when considering even supporting social transition (aka name/pronouns) guidance for schools that is even worse - p9.
/rant from here on out
The effects of pornography is also suggested as a topic of research in 7.16 - seriously WTF. Even though pornography may increase gender dysphoria for some, it does not cause gender dysphoria.
Section 6 has a graph showing "male" and "female" behaviours, and a similar graph for height. There is little context on the fact that these differences are not the same in any way, suggesting that the authors wanted to imply that there is a biological reason to prefer "girls'" things.
Also, intersex/DSD conditions are mentioned only about once in every 20 pages.
puberty blockers / HRT for cisgender individuals was not mentioned - despite it being a relevant parallel.
Section 5.40 onwards suggests "neurodiverse young people [are] potentially vulnerable
into their early 20s or longer because of their
tendency to want black and white answers"
- FFS BEING TRANS IS NOT A DISEASE AND ALSO THAT IS A BLATANT STEREOTYPE.
Apologies for the rant... Kinda off topic.
Have a blahaj if you made it this far. You deserve it, you're a wonderful and valid person.
Irenes (many)
in reply to Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify: • • •Irenes (many)
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Sarah Brown
Unknown parent • •@Amber @Hrefna (DHC) @Irenes (many) Meanwhile, Portuguese DIY barns literally have entire sections that are best described as “explosives and chemical warfare ingredients”
It’s glorious!
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Sarah Brown
Unknown parent • •@AntiThesisToRule a lot of this comes down to centralisation of social media moderation and systemic imposition of US puritanism. We used to be able to talk about this in spaces where we were left to moderate our own affairs.
And then we all ended up on Twitter and Facebook and Reddit, and were told by “corporate” that we can’t talk about this stuff any more.
This is why I have hope for the fediverse. It has the potential for those sort of spaces to develop again, but so far they don’t seem to have critical mass.
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Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:
in reply to Irenes (many) • • •Sensitive content
Best of luck to all of you wherever you are
Sarah Brown
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face: • •Sarah Brown
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face: • •Alexandra Lanes likes this.
Llwynog
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Becca Royal-Gordon
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •What makes you think it’s lost? My egg cracked in 2020, and within a couple of weeks I’d learned basically all of this info from an introductory article on transfemscience.org.
Trans people can and do become amateur endocrinologists so we can DIY if we have to. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t scream about it when the cis ineffectually try to cut off our access by restricting medicalized channels.
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Transfeminine ScienceVal Packett 🧉
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •legumancer Davy
in reply to Sarah Brown • • •Approximate Comparable Dosages of Estradiol by Different Routes
Transfeminine Science