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in reply to Sarah Brown

what about self-medding for trans men? Are there any options at all? I can't find much online.
in reply to Llwynog

@Llwynog Testosterone is a controlled substance. Makes things somewhat more complicated.
in reply to Llwynog

@llwynog it depends on where you're based - and possibly if you're open to moving or very very cautiously picking up some mail in another country. (I see the EU flag in your profile, that gives you options re: moving.) In Ireland it's not a controlled substance, and when I was checking the list of sellers on HRT Cafe for E patches I saw some that had injectable testosterone. Anecdotally, I pass much more easily in Ireland, I think because short and soft spoken men aren't out of the ordinary here.
in reply to Sarah Brown

also a lot of people do #DIYHRT all the time, even when it's theoretically possible to get meds in their juristiction simply because of #privacy being compromized and other risks ...
in reply to Sarah Brown

My feeling is that the Cass report has given politicians in the “centre ground”, the ones that we knew we couldn’t trust, a cover story to move away from supporting trans people on this. The Wes Streetings who were phoning in their allyship all along.

I’d be happy to be corrected, but nobody who seriously campaigns for better trans healthcare is happy about the proposed ban, it’s the chancers who don’t stand for anything that have abandoned us.

in reply to Katie Fenn

That said, I do agree that DIYing has been somewhat pushed underground. Having made the decision to switch to the NHS in the mid-2000s (I was transitioning at university and broke), I’ve always got my prescriptions from an NHS GP.

I wouldn’t even know where to start with DIY, which is playing on my mind, I admit.

in reply to Katie Fenn

Oh, and also, with more and more trans people coming out when young, and with full support of their parents, the demographic has somewhat changed.

There’s a new cohort of people who were hoping to have the support of the state, who have been completely abandoned. I know the community has always had my back on this, but I can’t help but feel for those people who are now feeling absolutely lost.

This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to Katie Fenn

@Katie Fenn anyone wanting to know this stuff should find a trans woman who transitioned in the 2000s or 1990s and ask. We will at the very least provide signposting.

Meanwhile I’ve got a lifetime ban from r/transgenderUK for simply stating that self medication happened. Wasn’t even advocating it. Just speaking about it existing is sufficient for other trans people to want to shut me up.

Our social media used to have entire communities dedicated to it.

in reply to Sarah Brown

That’s fucked up. I know they’ve had to tighten up their moderation because the Mail et al has been crawling Reddit, but there’s no justification for that.
in reply to Sarah Brown

trans reddit is a shithole it's really sad

in my generation at least DIY is kinda underground but we still have knowledgeable people you just have to find them scattered across discord servers and DMs

This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to Sarah Brown

@katiefenn I wonder if it's more just a side-effect of corporate social media than the community. The ones I know who know about DIY and transitioned around 2020 tend to hang around more on private discord groups or fedi rather than Reddit.
in reply to geekylou :transgender_flag:

@geekylou :transgender_flag: @Katie Fenn I think that’s a huge factor. In the 2000s, the de facto online UK trans community was LiveJournal where nobody gave a shit if you talked about grey market HRT. Now its places like Reddit and Facebook groups, where central moderation will nuke your whole group for it.

cy reshared this.

in reply to Sarah Brown

(u know this already but just in case - the chance of hepatotoxicity of cypro reduces as the dose lowers, while the anti-androgen effects actually increase with lower doses,)
in reply to Astryr the Seiber-Swynwraig

@Astryr the Cyber-Swynwraig This is good info. I was never on the stuff because I was able to get goserelin. My GP just prescribed it. Can you imagine that today?
in reply to Sarah Brown

@alexandria I started diy because I had no interest in socially transitioning and that wasn't an option.

Anyway when I did go to my gp she said "I assume you won't quit if I tell you to" yup. Here's a prescription, being monitored by a Dr is way more healthy than doing it yourself. I'll read up on the subject, come see me in 3 months

Unknown parent

Sarah Brown

@Ghost of Hope We’ve been through “asking your cis friends for birth control” before.

Of course, this time they’re going after birth control as well.

in reply to Sarah Brown

If it helps, I went from zero to knowing about these things in the last 18 months or so (🐣). The knowledge is extremely accessible today, but perhaps because various things have got a lot easier many people are less inclined to initially go "well I better learn what a 5-alpha reductase is then" as they have not had any learning forced upon them. Given how things are going though I suspect/hope that situation will correct itself very quickly.

obligatory: Also fuck the tories.

Sarah Brown reshared this.

in reply to Charlotte

@Charlotte There’s a lot that can be done with relatively few resources and effort even.

Googling, “how to boost aromatase levels” for example. It’s not much, but it’s something.

in reply to Sarah Brown

as recently as 2016 my trans ex was essentially compiling her own HRT regimen based on internet forums and WPATH
in reply to blan©k.

@blan©k. 2016 was 8 years ago. A different world! There were TV programmes in which we were portrayed as human beings and everything.
in reply to Sarah Brown

at least it's not '90s-level yet, unless there are planned remakes of Silence of the Lambs or Ace Ventura...
in reply to Sarah Brown

for the record, we don't think it's been lost, but it's definitely not talked about as much

the thing to keep in mind is this is ORAL HISTORY. getting lost is the default thing that happens to oral history. the way to preserve things is to write them down!

in reply to Irenes (many)

allow us also to recommend writing down politically contentious things like this in, like, a text file - it's self contained and anyone can download it and share it with their friends, no matter what happens to the place you get it. not like a website, which can go down.
in reply to Irenes (many)

there's a lot of problems of this nature because the queer community, you know, lost a generation recently and that means we need to rebuild all the cultural institutions that preserve knowledge and so on. like there has been some effort but there still needs to be more.
in reply to Irenes (many)

what we need is some form of decentralized documentation of trans knowledge, with dates to show outdated information. The only form that can take at the moment without censorship is through a strong community that shares advice well. However, I fear that there is a limit to how much information can be shared that way, without first lowering the stigma surrounding queer communities through effective protest/politics.
in reply to levampyre

so like personally we're checks calendar 43

there are very few living queer people older than us, because of the AIDS pandemic. growing up, there was nobody we could learn from.

in reply to Irenes (many)

(there's this phenomenon where if you're looking at an exponential curve, any point on it that you pay attention to feels like it's the shoulder. people ten years younger and older than us report the same phenomenon, and they're also correct.)
in reply to Irenes (many)

@ireneista Oh, we're the same generation then and you were indeed referring to the AIDS epidemic, as I assumed, but wasn't sure. Thanks.
@goatsarah
in reply to Irenes (many)

@ireneista One of the frustrating things about twitter-era social media is that it's added almost no durability to oral history.
in reply to Irenes (many)

it's also the case that when stuff is written in the form of a microblog post or even a longer post meant to go on a time-based feed (we're count facebook in that), it's quite hard to find the interesting stuff after the fact, or reconstruct the context in which it was said
in reply to Irenes (many)

every topic becomes spread out across thousands of small interactions across a period of months

mind, we do stay aware of this and use it consciously (good damn luck to anyone assigned to keep track of what we say for hostile purposes), but it's still a tragic loss

in reply to Sarah Brown

there's also a medium-is-the-message problem with social media

things said there tend to be very bound to a specific moment in time, not just in the sense of how they're navigated, but in that they rely on context from whenever they were said, which can be challenging to reconstruct

in reply to Irenes (many)

so the core "message" of social media is - live in the moment, don't look back, don't build larger stories out of your experiences

like yes that's an overly grandiose way to put it, and there are plenty of exceptions

in reply to Irenes (many)

@ireneista our own experience has been basically... entirely contrary to everything described here?

we first discovered that transition was possible at all by meeting some people (most of whom were physical-body-age younger than us) in "the European hacker scene" who firstly gave us the concept of bodily autonomy (as something we could name) but secondly knew about... every HRT detail mentioned in OP, and also much more

in reply to R

@ireneista
when we finally did (DIY) HRT ourselves, we mostly had to do our own research anyways because the body we wanted (at the time) was contrary to what most other people seemed to want, and we did most of this by just... reading through mechanisms of action on Wikipedia while also referencing published care guidelines. sure, the community has been doing a lot of work editing the relevant wiki articles, but that's not so much "oral history"?
in reply to R

@ireneista however, we *have* noticed that the vibe of "interesting" experimentation *has* changed, but we don't know why.
in reply to R

well - our point is that how people experience that depends heavily on which cliques they're in! the connective tissue, the story around the information and how to find it, is something that has to be picked up socially, though you can follow it on your own after. or at least that's how it looks to us; does that fit your experience?
in reply to Irenes (many)

@ireneista hmm, that's kinda complicated for us to answer? the very initial seed indeed came from social connections, but the bulk of "the actual mechanics of transitioning" came through one-sided lurking and other solo information gathering, especially since we had unusual and unpopular(?) desires
in reply to R

@ireneista
but now that we've powered through the bulk of "actual mechanics of transitioning", we seem to be coming back to needing(?) social connections? however, we seem to be rather isolated as a result of our allegedly "extremely ND" approach to transitioning, so we don't really have a "positive" view of the idea of compiling oral history
Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
yes absolutely
Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
can we just say we adore the notion of queer history and computer history being closely related 😁 it's just a fun thing to us to see in combination, since we care about both
in reply to Irenes (many)

they certainly have come together now, in this century, as like 90% of our mutuals could attest

and there were important threads earlier (Alan Turing! online dating when being gay was more illegal! all that stuff)

but also until the 80s computers were a strictly white-collar thing

in reply to Irenes (many)

the same s;ort of information loss happens when links die. I've come across it while trying to fix errors with my linux installation... some old forum post will describe exactly my issue and link to a solution - but the link is dead, that information is gone...
Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
yeah, excellent example
in reply to Irenes (many)

btw we hope Alan Turing's life makes it clear that even if you literally save the world, the boring everyday bigotry of the system will come for you. there is no exemption from legally enshrined hatred just because you're a famous hero. so like, do keep that in mind in your career choices.
in reply to Sarah Brown

⚡️because in the past a lot of people transitioning right now would not have transitioned at all because this knowledge would have been inaccessible to them.

It’s not that we were better in the past, it’s that in the past only the people able to access this kind of information were *able* to transition. I started hrt in 2011 abd I had to get lucky and encounter a few other, older trans people to even know hrt was a thing I could do successfully. I spent months scouring obscure websites and forums educating myself about it, how it worked, what was involved, what the consequences were, how to handle it legally, how to deal with medical gatekeepers. And I still didn’t know half of what I needed to.

Not to mention how many people ended up homeless or destitute or murdered or suicided who tried it and then lost all their social support.

It’s survivorship bias.

This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸

This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸

like, the kind of person who is smart or savy enough to out doctor trained medical professionals, wealthy enough to afford the dozens of medical appointments it took to find one who’d stick their neck out, psychologically resilient enough to keep doing this very hard thing while their entire life fell apart around them, and bold or secure enough to talk about it openly so we actually know what they knew, is a vanishingly small subset of trans people.

That’s why the % of people who transition jumped a full order of magnitude the moment this process became standardized and legit. Only 1 out of 10 trans people were able to make it that far.

in reply to 💨🐉Jade the Terrible 🇵🇸

@🪭The Notorious Kyo 🦊⛓️‍💥 NB: the “wealthy” bit is very US centric. Elsewhere that is a much less significant factor. I knew people back in the day on unemployment benefits in the UK who were still able to access transition medicine even with private practitioners, because most places do not have anything close to the financial barrier to accessing healthcare, even privately, that the US has.
in reply to Sarah Brown

yeah I mean, all I know is that back in 2015 bottom surgery was $20k out of pocket, whether you stayed in the US or went to Thailand. Estrogen was always cheap, but the only cheap anti-androgen here is spiro. Doctors here won’t even prescribe Cyproterone because the FDA considered too risky, and Finasteride is really expensive.
This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:

absolutely. we uh... personally we have a good map of the primary sources for old microcomputer information in our head so we've found we're often able to turn up stuff our younger friends can't, simply because the connective tissue that isn't there anymore still exists in our head
in reply to Irenes (many)

which is definitely not a good state of affairs, because we only have one head and it won't last forever
Unknown parent

Hrefna (DHC)

@puppygirlhornypost

I was just doing research on a particular poem and in one of the scant sources we have for it the author didn't write down anything about it because "everyone knows that one."

@ireneista @goatsarah

Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
absolutely, on all counts. it's hard to imagine anyone else inventing all that theory - if there'd been more people with that passion and creativity, there wouldn't be so much stuff with his name on it
Unknown parent

Unknown parent

politics

Sensitive content

Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
politics
for SURE
Unknown parent

Hrefna (DHC)

@puppygirlhornypost

I think it is worth underscoring here the difference in age groups and access levels we're talking about as well

When I first looked into these questions in the US I was in my _twenties_ and to get spiro + fin required a song and a dance through multiple providers and generally a RLE test.

What's happening now is targeting a much younger population that is more aware, working in a more directly hostile environment, with much more limited resources.

@ireneista @goatsarah

Unknown parent

Irenes (many)

yeah absolutely

sigh... the library people are pretty good about understanding the needs in our experience, it's the anarcho-capitalists who are a problem. or at least it feels that way to us personally, from what we've seen

Unknown parent

in reply to Hrefna (DHC)

yeah when we personally started transition, a lot of resources assumed the biggest barrier was you wouldn't want anyone who sees you to figure out you're trans or be able to trace that to your legal identity
in reply to Irenes (many)

we went through this whole multi-year emotional THING about it personally, before deciding those are non-goals for us
Unknown parent

Irenes (many)
we don't know which incident you mean, do you have more details?
Unknown parent

easrng
@puppygirlhornypost @ireneista @awedp you can’t you head to index a site tho, it doesn’t send the body so there’s no way to get a page’s links
in reply to Hrefna (DHC)

@puppygirlhornypost

It's probably also worth noting that dutasteride and finasteride have the same challenge as a lot of other drugs in this space: not readily prescribed to people under the age of 18 due to "lack of testing" in the young age group.

Meaning you need a source for it that is willing to take significant chances for you if you are under 18, in a way that can easily be caught by a government probe.

So the knowledge is helpful, but the doors keep closing

@ireneista @goatsarah

in reply to Irenes (many)

certainly, thats why kkkristian wasp trash plague is worse than cancer ...
Unknown parent

Unknown parent

Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:

@ireneista@adhd.irenes.space my endo prescribes cypro as antiandrogen (at a safe level but as far as i know it's still bleh long term) and refused to prescribe my friend bicalutamide instead even though she's been getting depression symptoms as a side effect from cypro, refusing to acknowledge that that's indeed a known side effect.
he's widely recommended here in my local community but even he doesn't really know much about what he's doing. he also wouldn't give me progesterone until just about a month ago because "my levels aren't low enough" (it's been on a steady downward trend already but that shouldn't even be relevant either way)

i also didnt get a response when i asked him if its a bad thing that my prolactin is way above the recommended range shown on my blood test results, and im not gonna wait another 6 weeks for an appointment to ask in person

with some things i just trust myself more than medical professionals, but DIY is miles more inconvenient and expensive than getting it prescribed and almost fully covered by health insurance

in reply to Hrefna (DHC)

yeah knowledge provides the necessary foundation for action, so it still matters, but the institutional power being brought to bear right now is quite something
in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:

@ireneista@adhd.irenes.space oh yeah about the prolactin thing, in case anyone here can tell me whether this is fine or not i'd welcome some help :3

i believe i once heard someone say that anything above ~30 is bad but i wanna get a second opinion on that

in reply to Irenes (many)

@ireneista @puppygirlhornypost @hrefna Likely the Boston Marathon bombing, accomplished with pressure cookers. They used a good brand, too, we bought one later because as everyone knows, the only way to stop a bad guy with a pressure cooker....
Unknown parent

Seirdy

@puppygirlhornypost @ireneista @awedp This is part of why I like the Common Crawl. It massively reduces the amount of compute/energy/time wasted to index the Web. It’s not just used for LLMs.

The LLM problem is better addressed by something like the W3C’s work-in-progress TDM Reservation Protocol, which is a sort of evolution of robots meta-tags and doesn’t hijack robots.txt (which is ideal for managing robot traffic load).

Unknown parent

Li ~ Crystal System
@puppygirlhornypost @hrefna @ireneista and then the "lack of data" is just 'so there's all this data and we ignored it because insert some bs reason here'
in reply to Irenes (many)

CW: uk pol + transphobic cass review

Sensitive content

in reply to Lottie :trans_verify: :ace_verify: :panro_verify:

CW: uk pol + transphobic cass review
it's fine! we try not to comment on UK trans politics because we don't have cultural context and there is lots of fear-driven rhetoric about the UK that spreads in the US despite not being what people living there are concerned by
in reply to Irenes (many)

CW: uk pol + transphobic cass review
we broadly agree with your assessment, with that caveat
Unknown parent

Sarah Brown

@Amber @Hrefna (DHC) @Irenes (many) Meanwhile, Portuguese DIY barns literally have entire sections that are best described as “explosives and chemical warfare ingredients”

It’s glorious!

Unknown parent

Sarah Brown

@AntiThesisToRule a lot of this comes down to centralisation of social media moderation and systemic imposition of US puritanism. We used to be able to talk about this in spaces where we were left to moderate our own affairs.

And then we all ended up on Twitter and Facebook and Reddit, and were told by “corporate” that we can’t talk about this stuff any more.

This is why I have hope for the fediverse. It has the potential for those sort of spaces to develop again, but so far they don’t seem to have critical mass.

cy reshared this.

in reply to Irenes (many)

CW: uk pol + transphobic cass review

Sensitive content

in reply to Lea :blobhaj_pumpkin_face:

@Lea :neocat_floof_happy: :v_trans: :v_lesbian: @Hrefna (DHC) @Amber my partner has a pituitary prolactinoma and hers is off scale high without medication. It’s one of those things where a problem tends to be signified by a couple of orders of magnitude above the normal range.
in reply to Sarah Brown

It's possible to genetically modify gonads IN ADULTS so they produce desired levels of T or O. It's not even that difficult (for trans men, it would involve a one-off tamoxifen injection directly into the ovaries). As soon as the trans community figures out how to use genetic engineering, governments will find it nearly impossible to stop us: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10…
in reply to Sarah Brown

What makes you think it’s lost? My egg cracked in 2020, and within a couple of weeks I’d learned basically all of this info from an introductory article on transfemscience.org.

Trans people can and do become amateur endocrinologists so we can DIY if we have to. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t scream about it when the cis ineffectually try to cut off our access by restricting medicalized channels.

in reply to Sarah Brown

umm.. but like we're in the age of diyhrt.wiki and transfemscience?
in reply to Sarah Brown

in Ireland it's very hard to get a prescription for any HRT, public has a 10 year waitlist and will tell your GP they're at risk of losing their license if they prescribe HRT (this is a lie), so most of us were relying on UK-based GenderGP, which is now imploding. The website "HRT Cafe" and this dosing chart transfemscience.org/articles/e… have been a godsend for a newly hatched trans girl I know. I just count myself lucky that I've gotten what I needed from testosterone and my body's stock hormones are good enough for me going forward.