Just seen the best bit of commentary on transmisogyny I’ve seen in ages: if you want to know how a man treats cis women in private, look at how he treats trans women in public.
- ain't that the truth... its because those men see us as sub-female. They don't feel they even need to go thru the motions of appearing to be a good person. They can pass GO, and great to stri8 to toxicity...
A lot of these “We only treat cis women right” likes are very ugly towards percieved cis women, if they demand freedom of expression, freedom of choice, equal rights…
I know these people. I know a Canadian in his 40s, who fears feminism like the devil the holy water, “it destroys the Northamerica as I know it.”, “This woke mind virus”, “I won’t accept a government, which promotes weak men.”. At some point, I got his textes everyday with all kinds of RW buzzwords. When you are transphobic, you are not a kind person to every person. You are selective on base of a personal fact. Trans people often need 18-35 years to come out due to that.
@Justin Macleod and by the same token, it’s perfectly possible for someone saying what you just said to have a different definition of healthy and normal than the women in his life.
@JustinMac84 To be transphobic, one must lack the ability or willingness to extend empathy to those whose lives are unlike one’s own, and to treat them as full and complete human beings.
This failure is mirrored in misogyny, whether the person recognizes it as such or not. “Treating them right”, when you can’t understand how THEY wish to be treated, is merely “commit no obvious violence towards them”, but it is not “respect their personhood”.
@JustinMac84 Bigotry is based in a lack of empathy paired with a background hum of discrimination as the person moves through society, and part of that discrimination is a failure to recognize what IS discrimination. It rarely keeps to its own little box.
You are approaching this from an active and aware kind of hatred perspective - “has it in for” - which is not how many bigots act; they defend themselves as not -ist all the time.
perhaps not on purpose, but the possibility is there that she might step on another cis woman's foot by being transphobic against her, because she didnt look/sound/behave cis enough.
@JustinMac84 Logically, let’s point out that since trans women are women, trans misogyny is necessarily a subtype of *general misogyny* the same way a square is a subtype of rectangle. Secondly, the mistreatment of both groups (cis and trans women) stem from the same underlying beliefs: bioessentialism, femininity as inferior, etc. and holding these beliefs always lead to the similar patterns of thoughts and behaviors.
@JustinMac84 What OP is pointing out is that, in this example, you talk about two individuals, and use two pronouns: “she” for the cis woman, and “their” for the trans woman.
@JustinMac84 batting southpaw and using left handed scissors are different observed behaviors with the same underlying root cause; I think most ppl w common sense would be comfortable presuming that someone who does one of those things might also likely do the other at some point.
@JustinMac84 also some cis women look trans and some trans woman look cis. If such a cis-woman-respecting transmisogyst were to exist how would he even know for sure who to respect and who to abuse? And isn’t it inherently misogynistic to condition your respect for a woman based on some assessment of her appearance?
@Justin Macleod It is an image of a man holding his finger to the lips of a woman to silence her while he fills the rest of the frame with BLAH BLAH BLAH.
@JustinMac84 Okay, I'll bite. I've no idea if this is a good-faith argument or someone who's bored and looking for a laugh, so I'm not going to reply to responses.
People's attitudes to homosexuality, to transness, and to women are closely tied. They're not the same thing, but they feed off each other. For example, there's an inter-relatedness in the fear of being seen as effeminate, between fear of gay men and a perceived "ickiness" of women. Cis-men are also under intense pressure to conform to gender norms, and over time that often develops into an aversion towards being "mistaken" for a woman. Strict cis-heterosexuality is potentially unstablised by any threat to the membrane between "wanting to have" and "wanting to be". Someone who likes airline pilots and maybe wants to be an airline pilot (or once did or doesn't, or maybe marry one, or hang out with them) can do so quite easily in a fluid way, and this fluidity has to be policed in cis-heterosexuality when it comes to sexuality. ...
@JustinMac84 ... The way a trans-man treats "otherness" in respect to this whole cluster of aversions correlates how they treat otherness in other circumstances in this bundle. Trans-people at present can be attacked under the cover of "concern" which doesn't look overtly misogynistic, society is (infuriatingly) making this a "free hit" in this game under cover of concern and is powered by the uncanny feeling that comes from a threat to the deep sense of the inherent naturalness and defaultness of not being "other" in any of these categories. Which carries across to other categories in the cluster.
If someone feels a deep need to police bathrooms for genitalia, that likely carries over to policing jobs for genitalia too, or strength, coming from the same deep tangle. It's all the same gig.
@JustinMac84 No, I'm reading your replies. But I'm not going to reply substantively, as these debates are tedious to me, as they are old and unoriginal. If I had a Patreon you could pay to continue if you are motivated to do so, but I don't and I have to make a dairylea toasted sandwich and go see the ducks on the reservoir.
@JustinMac84 a misogynist is someone who mistreats some or all women on the basis of their gender identity. That is not a “generalization” that is simply the definition of the word. A generalization would be correlating misogyny with a random unrelated trait like eye color or astrological sign.
@JustinMac84 i think bioessentialism is the core presupposition of both transphobia and misogyny. I think that if a man holds these essentialist views, he will hold them across the board for trans and cis people but keep them better hidden when applying them to cis women since we hold relatively more political power in society compared to trans women.
@JustinMac84 yes it is a fact. In order to believe men are inherently superior to women (misogyny), you must first believe that there is some fixed essence of femaleness that is fundamentally important to who one is as a person. And if this essence is fixed, then trans people aren’t valid (transphobia). That is the link and you still haven’t been able to disentangle that link.
@JustinMac84 yes terfs are always misogynistic because they attack trans women and reduce cis women to reproductive functions. I said misogyny and transphobia have a root cause in common. Not that they are exactly the same. Batting southpaw is not the same thing as using left handed scissors but the two behaviors are closely related due to sharing a common root cause.
@JustinMac84 how come transphobes always accuse trans women of being perverts in women’s locker rooms oogling cis women but they never accuse trans men of sneaking into men’s locker room to oogle cis men? If they view the genders as equal why not criticize all trans people the same way accross the board?
@JustinMac84 yes exactly. Transphobes are sexist just like you said. Some prejudices are not separable from one another because they rest on the same assumptions.
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Unknown parent • • •@JustinMac84 To be transphobic, one must lack the ability or willingness to extend empathy to those whose lives are unlike one’s own, and to treat them as full and complete human beings.
This failure is mirrored in misogyny, whether the person recognizes it as such or not. “Treating them right”, when you can’t understand how THEY wish to be treated, is merely “commit no obvious violence towards them”, but it is not “respect their personhood”.
Sarah Brown likes this.
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Unknown parent • • •@JustinMac84 Bigotry is based in a lack of empathy paired with a background hum of discrimination as the person moves through society, and part of that discrimination is a failure to recognize what IS discrimination. It rarely keeps to its own little box.
You are approaching this from an active and aware kind of hatred perspective - “has it in for” - which is not how many bigots act; they defend themselves as not -ist all the time.
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Unknown parent • • •@JustinMac84 @WhiteCatTamer it is not "s y s" but "c i s"
perhaps not on purpose, but the possibility is there that she might step on another cis woman's foot by being transphobic against her, because she didnt look/sound/behave cis enough.
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Unknown parent • • •@JustinMac84 Okay, I'll bite. I've no idea if this is a good-faith argument or someone who's bored and looking for a laugh, so I'm not going to reply to responses.
People's attitudes to homosexuality, to transness, and to women are closely tied. They're not the same thing, but they feed off each other. For example, there's an inter-relatedness in the fear of being seen as effeminate, between fear of gay men and a perceived "ickiness" of women. Cis-men are also under intense pressure to conform to gender norms, and over time that often develops into an aversion towards being "mistaken" for a woman. Strict cis-heterosexuality is potentially unstablised by any threat to the membrane between "wanting to have" and "wanting to be". Someone who likes airline pilots and maybe wants to be an airline pilot (or once did or doesn't, or maybe marry one, or hang out with them) can do so quite easily in a fluid way, and this fluidity has to be policed in cis-heterosexuality when it comes to sexuality. ...
🧵 1/2
kæt
in reply to kæt • • •@JustinMac84 ... The way a trans-man treats "otherness" in respect to this whole cluster of aversions correlates how they treat otherness in other circumstances in this bundle. Trans-people at present can be attacked under the cover of "concern" which doesn't look overtly misogynistic, society is (infuriatingly) making this a "free hit" in this game under cover of concern and is powered by the uncanny feeling that comes from a threat to the deep sense of the inherent naturalness and defaultness of not being "other" in any of these categories. Which carries across to other categories in the cluster.
If someone feels a deep need to police bathrooms for genitalia, that likely carries over to policing jobs for genitalia too, or strength, coming from the same deep tangle. It's all the same gig.
🧵 2/2
kæt
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